Question: Where do you stand on a potential move to USL?

Reddit Rowdies fan discussion. 

The move to USL is most likely part of Edwards' campaign to move the Rowdies to MLS. NASL was not helping Edwards in that regard. Unused Substitutes podcast mentions "whispers of Edwards/Garber meetings..." and this could be part of that. 

People who are skeptical about Rowdies to MLS often say that "MLS was tried once in Tampa Bay and it failed"; but that was 15 years ago, and the "MLS try" was MLS ownership/control of the Mutiny without any actual Tampa Bay Mutiny owner; and the Mutiny weren't that bad in attendance considering what MLS was drawing back then. The Mutiny's problem was lack of ownership and the sharp increase in rent for the new Raymond James stadium; with Bill Edwards and his control of the Al Lang Stadium site, these are not problems for the Rowdies or for the Rowdies as an MLS team. Somehow, the great success of the Tampa Bay Rowdies in the 1970s and early 80s is never considered to be worthy of note; all that matters is that MLS contracted the Mutiny (because they didn't have an owner and the stadium rent was too high, not because of low attendance); if it had been a matter of simply cutting the two teams with the lowest MLS attendance circa 1996-2001, the Tampa Bay Mutiny would not have been one of the teams contracted.

Or they say that the Rowdies NASL attendance is too low (it isn't); but attendance in lower league soccer hasn't mattered at all for many lower league cities that moved to MLS - and in any case the current limited Al Lang capacity makes it hard to increase average attendance as is.

Or they say that the Tampa Bay area is too close to Orlando; but that hasn't stopped MLS putting two teams in New York City and soon two teams in Los Angeles (and if Sacramento gets in, two teams close to each other in northern California); and local rivalries are good, as Cascadia has shown and the Red Bulls vs. NY City rivalry has shown; after all the Orlando ultras have already tried to light Al Lang on fire (sorta) and punch a kid (and gotten ejected from Al Lang) so there's definitely a rivalry there, though local officials need to clamp down a bit on ultra excesses.

Or they say that since Miami is going to MLS, this allegedly puts a limit on new Florida MLS teams. Well, the Tampa Bay area is a bigger TV market than the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale TV market; Tampa Bay is also a bigger TV market than Orlando. Only Detroit and Phoenix are larger TV markets who aren't in MLS yet. And it is not yet certain that Miami is actually going to get an MLS team.   

Things are not going well for the Miami Beckham United project: they have neither a SSS (talks with Miami-Dade County to acquire more land in Overtown broke down early this year), nor do they have the billionaire investor they need (PSG pulled out of talks early this year; another potential investor was mentioned three months ago, but since then, nothing but silence). Miami MLS may very well not happen; Tampa Bay Rowdies may very well be MLS team number 24. It could happen. 

Oh, and the cries that the Rowdies will become a farm team in USL are quite ridiculous. Was Orlando in USL a farm team? They had a better team than anyone in NASL at the time. There's no reason why the Rowdies in USL would not follow the Orlando City route, especially if Edwards intends to go to MLS: Joe Cole and the other big money players aren't leaving just because the Rowdies are apparently going to USL.

Lack of local rivals in USL is a more legitimate complaint, but also illustrates how spoiled Rowdies fans are currently with having three in-state rivals. This is a density of local clubs in the same league in close proximity to each other which is a bit unusual for American lower league soccer. 

But if the Rowdies are going to MLS, the stay in USL may be a short one, so it may not matter. We shall see. 

(Follow link for full article.)

https://www.reddit.com/r/TampaBayRowdies/comments/54mky4/question_where_do_you_stand_on_a_potential_move/

Question: Where do you stand on a potential move to USL?

by phat7deuce

Personally, sometimes I come here for therapy...generally when we are in the midst of a losing streak and I need some like-minded individuals with a shoulder to cry on.

We've heard the buzz now and had some time to think on it. How are you feeling about a potential move to USL?

What (if anything) are you excited by?

What (if anything) are you upset about?

If you had a "yay" or "nay" vote in terms of leaving for USL, which would you choose?

dietrich14:
With a great stadium, packed stands, and stable ownership; we are a hot commodity in lower division soccer. If We do nothing and NASL collapses in a few years, we will still have a landing pad. So why pull the trigger now unless guarantees of mLS are being made or NASL is getting blacklisted? Don't get me wrong. If Edwards is making a statement by elluding to a move in order to influence league development, I get it. But if he thinks a rivalry with OCB Melbourne will carry the same weight as NYCosmos, PRFC, or any of the other the FL clubs. He's deluding himself.

phat7deuce:

My thinking: I want the Rowdies to be as successful as possible and a big deal in the area. I dream of a Providence Park type atomosphere at a remodeled Al Lang. To me there are only two paths there...go to MLS or stay in NASL and let that league become a great option to MLS (even if it stays technically D2). From what we know now, I can't see the logic of leaving at this point. Wait until we know more about the leagues paths, then decide if you need to make a move. If we get stuck in D3 because USL doesn't get a sanction, I will be beyond disappointed.

The only advantages I can see to USL are the MLS relationship (or the ability to openly court MLS) and the appearance of stability. I know there are a shitload of teams, but I'm not sure how much more economically viable USL really is. I'd rather keep our rivals, keep our local travel and keep bringing exciting NASL talent (name talent in some cases) until NASL is no longer an option.

I'd vote "nay" based on what we know today. (But I love my Saturday nights at Al Lang...as a 12 year transplant for Florida, finding the Rowdies is the first time I felt like I was growing some roots here.)

SoccerForEveryone:

There are a couple of things I believe we can look forward to USL

The Rivalry with Orlando; it is about time we once again start recognizing the potential of this clash and the rise of real and bigger number of away fans in Florida.

The Kids; we will finally be able to look forward to bringing up younger and local players instead of having to rely so much on ex MLSers or older oversea players.

The Potential of Expansion; for whatever reason nobody is talking with NASL at all about stadiums or pushing the envelope about training facilities. MLS and USL have gotten the better end of these deals. Maybe with this move we can finally get things done and show that Tampa can be a bigger club than most people think, but we have to make moves.

MLS; it is about time we start recognizing that something is wrong with NASL whether people want to believe that it has something to do with the US Soccer theory. On our own Rowdies have been able to pull the crowd towards them. With the Pre-season tour and now potential Florida Cup; imagine what the move to MLS could really do for us on the international level.

The move to USL certainly helps big time for the Rowdies real potential in the soccer world, but yes the drawback is the MLS farm teams not drawing crowds. In my opinion I don't have a problem with that because in Germany you have a huge team like Dynamo Dresden that once played in the third division against farm teams and they still pulled off great crowds, support, and tifos. Our concentration as a fanbase should be on the Rowdies and what is good for them and support them. Which is why I believe the USL move will greatly help.

BKtoDuval:

Oh Dynamo Dresden! I walked around Berlin with a dynamo shirt and got a lot of dirty looks. I think they might've even been in the fourth league at one time but now up to second. Anyway, soccer in Germany is a whole different beast though. We can't compare their passion and culture with ours here.

Well you bring up some valid points. I'd just disagree with point 3 and probably point 1 too. Your rivalry wouldn't be with Orlando city...but Orlando city B, who average about 1000 a game.

And actually several teams are talking stadiums and training facilities and youth academies. In Jacksonville there's talk of all of that. The local youth squads have come under the armada umbrella and they have the U-23 team. There are plans for a new stadium but no city approval yet. But I think cities might want to see the long-term sustainability of the league before agreeing to publicly fund stadiums. MLS didn't get SSS for a good decade into their existence. Of course the Cosmos' battle for facilities has long been chronicled. Indy too. So efforts are there. As the league grows and improves, so will the facilities.

SoccerForEveryone:

To get the OCB thing out of the way real; Munich 1860 main team despite ups and downs in Germany even consider and played the Bayern Munich II team as a strong rivalry when they don't play the main Bayern Munich squad. Also 1000 people is definitely better than what the Strikers bring along. The culture thing should not be a factor because yes we have multiple sports and longer travel, but we could also do the same thing if we really want to. That's just me though because I'm passionate and level-headed about local sports in general.

The situation with the stadiums has been talks for months to years, but the difference is the lack of pressure that some of the NASL teams FO and their fanbases really do compared to what MLS has done in a short time when they were created. The Rowdies are definitely a rare and very lucky team to have these changes get done thanks to Edwards and our fanbase. While the stadium and training facility are the end goal to finally get the team going and creating great players; I would consider the Rowdies have gotten more work done than what the NASL has done these past few years. Which is why I believe the Rowdies should make the move to USL and start preparing for MLS in the future.

phat7deuce:

I do think that if Edwards left NASL and he openly courted MLS with a Sacramento style "Built for MLS" type campaign...he might have more political leverage to get the lease extension/stadium expansion done than he would if we stayed in NASL. (But if he pushed hard enough, he could probably get it done either way...he owns half of the downtown.)

BKtoDuval: 

Are you from Germany, if you don't mind me asking? Or just a big Bundesliga fan?

Yeah, they've done big things in Tampa. I've even found articles that they wanted further improvements and expansion to Al Lang but couldn't get approval yet.

I'm not one of these league conspiracy theorists, BUT it has been written, not saying it's been verified, that MLS obstructionism has caused problems with NASL getting stadiums as well. Empire of Soccer has written that MLS has lobbied against the Cosmos' efforts for a new stadium, which they've been working hard to get. You can't say they haven't been working hard. They're even willing to finance it entirely on their own, which is an extreme rarity in American sports. I can't say it's true but I find it hard to believe that Nassau County, which has among the highest property taxes in the county and could use the investment, is struggling to accept someone willing to invest almost half a billion dollars in the community without some sort of interference and lobbying. Imagine if they wanted public funds.

Bottom line stadiums take time. I'm sure you're well aware of the Rays' decade long fight just even get to the point of letting the county allow them to explore alternatives. I even remember back in the days when teams used to threaten to go to Tampa unless their city built them a new stadium.

phat7deuce: 

The Rowdies probably have the most favorable stadium situation in terms of potential expansion in the league. They don't need to find land; they have a billionaire owner who has significant influence in the area and owns many plots of land around the stadium; the land has been identified as a soccer-specific/multi-use stadium in a city council approved downtown master plan; and there is a fairly conservative price tag associated with getting the stadium to 18,500 (estimated at $70k-$90k, compared to the half-million for the Rays). That doesn't mean it's a slam dunk (they still need to negotiate a longer term-length for leases on the property), but definitely an easier path than what the Cosmos of Indy have to go through. Perhaps along with Sacramento and San Antonio, we have the most favorable potential MLS quality stadium solution of any potential suitors.

phat7deuce:

We'd still have some major obstacles to clear.

PROS: Billionaire owner, solid attendance base, nationally ranked 11th in DMA (Media); ranked 18th in MSA (population); favorable somewhat-inexpensive stadium situation in a downtown core that can be completed quickly

CONS: MLS failed here once (even though it was eons ago, it's still a dark cloud); prevailing thought that Edwards would need to secure a partner to make the jump; Orlando is down the block (could be a good or bad thing...they are definitely distinct media markets and could create a Cascadia-like experience, but not sure if it is far enough in MLS' mind when looking at the national map); plus IMO any chance of Tampa Bay getting an MLS team would rely on Miami not getting the job done

EquinsuOcha: 

I fucking hate it.

Our local rivalry will be with Orlando City B, which will involve more fights, more drama, and that will turn away casuals and people who don't want to get caught up in that bullshit.

The second closest travel location is Charleston - which is 10 hours away. It would be just short of traveling to Carolina for a Railhawks game.

The USL will host such legendary teams like Red Bulls II - who are definitely not going to be a draw. Attendance will drop.

A USL payroll means that we will never see someone like Joe Cole again.

If we develop some great players and talent, they will most likely be sold to MLS instead of growing the franchise.
   
We will become a farm team.
   
I fucking hate it.

So going with Nay.

AndrewLipp:

Wow, love all the responses. Interesting to see what people think. Personally I thought about it and thought it would be the right move if we wanted to go MLS, but maybe staying lower tier would be better for us? I am really not sure. We will see in the coming months what will happen.

unsubmatt:

Minnesota (and Montreal before it) has shown that if you have the money, the stadium, and the butts in the seats, MLS will take you regardless of league-of-origin

unsubmatt:

no, we're not there yet. I think a rebuild of the stadium into one that looks like a SSS would generate a bump in attendance (provided the team got results) but if we were to hit those benchmarks, MLS wouldn't hold NASL against us. (top 3 overall in NASL attendance IIRC though. /u/phat7deuce would know for sure)

phat7deuce:

Yup, third in NASL and 7th in all lower division soccer (behind FC Cincy, Sacramento, Minnesota, Indy, Louisville and San Antonio).

EDIT: I will say MLS seems to be getting more choosy about where these last 5 (if they stop at 28) teams go. They want to fill the map and maximize TV dollars...which is one of the reasons I think we have a decent shot. We're the 11th biggest MSA and a good sports TV market.

rhayward:

I honestly feel like it's a bad choice. The only USL rivals we have locally are the OCB, and honestly, after the shit-show that was the I4-Derby, I'm not looking forward to attending those games. If USL could somehow guarantee us more local teams, then yea, but for the moment, I don't see it happening.

Another reason is that people seem to have this perception that we are somehow going to get into MLS. I may be seriously pessimistic, but we are way down the list to be considered for MLS in my opinion, and I don't really see how a move to USL could improve our chances. True, most of the future candidates for MLS are in USL, but when you look at their attendance, it's way up there. Now, if you were to tell me we're getting a SSS, and that the FO has figured out how skyrocket attendance, then yea, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

I would honestly rather our team survive in the NASL, rather than leave for USL with the hopes of joining MLS.

That being said, NASL is looking pretty dire, and I'm trying to stay positive by telling myself it looking more and more the NASL is going to sink to D3 and the USL will be D2 next year, or the year after, so it really wouldn't be that big of a change, but it's hard to know for certain. Lots of speculation, lies, and propaganda out there.

phat7deuce:

The only reason I think USL can make an easier path to MLS is that Edwards can more openly court MLS from USL than he could from NASL. If you do it from NASL you kind of shoot yourself in the foot, since all owners have a share in the league's ownership...you're hurting your own product and need to deal with your fellow owners. In USL, since it is owned by a third-party holding company, it's game on. A "Let's go to MLS" campaign could possibly help attendance and be leveraged to get the Stadium deal done. But still...I think we're on the fringes of MLS expansion and I really believe it's only possible if Miami entirely falls apart.

"Lots of speculation, lies, and propaganda out there."

Amen to that. Plus I think a lot of chapters haven't been written yet. I think there's a lot of stuff that could still go down in the next couple months.